SPIEGEL Interview with Lawrence Wright on His New Scientology Book - DER SPIEGEL
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'It Is Like a Drug Trip' Author Explains Allure of Scientology

In an interview, Pulitzer Prize-winning author Lawrence Wright discusses his new book on Scientology, the organization's ability to manipulate people, how some followers voluntarily spend years in penal compounds and his fascination with L. Ron Hubbard.
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Lawrence Wright was awarded the Pulitzer Prize in 2007 for his book, "The Looming Tower: Al-Qaida and the Road to 9/11". This week, the German translation will be published this week of his latest book, "Going Clear: Scientology, Hollywood and the Prison of Belief". In it, Wright, 66, describes how faith can change people's behavior. In the United States, Scientology is officially recognized as a church. In Germany, however, the organization has been monitored in several states since 1997 by the Office for the Protection of the Constitution, a group of agencies responsible for observing potentially undemocratic segments of society. Scientology officials claim to have 12,000 members in Germany, but German authorities believe that figure is closer to 4,000.

In an interview with SPIEGEL, Wright discusses his new book and his experiences researching the controversial organization.


SPIEGEL: Mr. Wright, you have challenged the Church of Scientology, a powerful organization known for its litigiousness. During the research for your book, you spoke to 200 Scientologists and people who left the church. How did the organization react?

Wright: The church was naturally aware of my research. When I interviewed dropouts, we were tailed by private detectives. The church published surveillance photos of that. Prior to the publication of the magazine story which resulted in the writing of the book, a meeting took place with the lawyers from Scientology, four of them, and they had brought along large quantities of files. Together with the publisher's fact checkers we clarified 971 factual questions to protect ourselves from litigation.

SPIEGEL: You have an elaborate alarm system at home. Why?

Wright: I had that installed as a precautionary measure. After my publications, the church printed a special edition trying to refute my alleged lies. And the church has launched a counterattack -- the television ad aired during the Super Bowl, for example.

SPIEGEL: To German ears your book has a somewhat sympathetic tone to it. You call Scientology a church and some sympathy for Scientology founder L. Ron Hubbard can be detected. Why?

Wright: It is correct that I was cautious. But my main reason was that I have always felt that the reader should be able to draw his own conclusions. It is more astounding just to present him with the facts without commentary -- and more effective.

SPIEGEL: Prior to this book, you wrote another one about the ascent of al-Qaida for which you were awarded the Pulitzer Prize. What prompted you to focus on Scientology?

Wright: Like a lot of people, I looked at Scientology as a bizarre belief system, and yet there where all these well-known personalities suffering a kind of public relations martyrdom for their beliefs, like Tom Cruise or John Travolta.

SPIEGEL: The genesis of Scientology alone is completely crazy. Hubbard, the former science fiction author, wrote that the galactic ruler Xenu lived 4 billion years ago in a universe similar to our own. Under the pretext of a tax audit, he lured people into spaceships that looked like American DC-8s. Then they were transported to the prison planet Earth, stuffed into volcanoes and blown up with nuclear bombs. That surely cannot be taken seriously.

Wright: Right, but then somebody comes along who is more skeptical than oneself, smarter and more creative, who twice writes scripts for films that get an Academy Award, "L.A. Crash" and "Million Dollar Baby," and he stays for 35 years even though he considers many things to be madness. Why does he stay? That is the theme of the book.

SPIEGEL: Why are seemingly reasonable people interested in an organization whose goal quite plainly appears to be a particular form of money-making?

Wright: These people are spiritual seekers who have tried to find answers in other religions and have not been satisfied, people with personal problems. Scientology offers so-called personality tests and courses to help find solutions to those problems that were found in the tests. A lot of people have actually subjectively been helped by these courses.

SPIEGEL: It is still difficult to understand the appeal of Scientology.

Wright: Many intelligent, skeptical people become members of Scientology, like Hollywood screenwriter Paul Haggis. I wanted the reader to feel a little scared about the capacity of the human mind and the human personality to be changed by outside forces, because it is possible to direct a person's thinking and behavior.

SPIEGEL: What drove Haggis to Scientology?

Wright: Paul Haggis was a young man in a complicated relationship. After having been approached on the street, he brought his girlfriend along and they took a course that was designed to help their relationship, and Haggis felt that it did. What interested him was the apparently scientific approach to a spiritual problem, a technique to solve problems with.

SPIEGEL: How does Scientology proceed with this technique?

Wright: In the beginning, the goal is to become "clear". Hubbard wrote that there are two minds, a rational and a reactive one. The rational mind functions perfectly like a computer and the reactive one causes all the fears and anxieties. Thoughts as such are to be repeated again and again until they no longer have a negative meaning.

SPIEGEL: That sounds somewhat like trauma therapy. How should one picture a Scientology therapy?

Wright: At the so-called auditing, the person is connected to a machine called an "E-meter," a kind of lie detector. He holds two tin cans in his hands -- they used to be Campbell soup cans with their labels stripped off -- that measure the galvanic skin response. In an auditing session he could say: "I do not feel well, because my mother scolded me this morning." Then the auditor would let him tell the story over and over again, until the meter remains unaffected. And then the auditor would ask him to reflect if that reminds him of similar experiences in the past. He may remember his teacher hitting him with a ruler. And then he goes further back until there are no more memories. Still, the auditor persists. Then perhaps the E-meter flickers, the auditor inquires and suddenly the person sees himself on a spaceship in an ancient civilization, in a war with other spaceships. So apparent memories are being fabricated, the needle moves and says that these are real memories from a past life.

SPIEGEL: Is it easy to induce such memories?

Wright: It is surprisingly easy. The story of the spaceships was told to me by Scientologists. To some people it already happens during the first session. You suddenly believe that you have lived before, that you are an eternal being -- and Scientology helped to awake these memories in you. Often people also have an out-of-body experience and the soul looks around the room or even goes to another planet. It is like a drug trip, so powerful that any criticism of Scientology does not affect you.

SPIEGEL: And such hocus-pocus is sufficient for people to leave all caution to the wind?

Wright: Apparently. A Scientologist told me his story. He suffered from hemorrhoids since he had been in the military, and every time he watched a war movie or saw a military parade he would have an outbreak. Under auditing, he remembered being a child in the Civil War in the 19th century. A soldier shot him in the ass. After this discovery during auditing he never again had an outbreak of hemorrhoids. This man was absolutely convinced that the auditing had cured him. People even talk about memories they had in the womb or when they were sperm.

SPIEGEL: That sounds pretty gaga.

Wright: Even Hubbard thought that was gaga, until more and more people told him of such sperm dreams. Then he apparently had them himself too.

SPIEGEL: How can that be possible?

Wright: It is frighteningly easy to implant false memories into people that they then believe to be real.

SPIEGEL: How many people are members of Scientology?

Wright: The church insists that there are 8 to 10 million, but that is a lie. The International Association of Scientologists has only 50,000 members. The true figure probably lies in-between.

SPIEGEL: What touched you most during your research?

Wright: The abuse of children. They are drawn into the so-called clergy, the Sea Org, as eight- or nine-year olds. They sign a contract for a billion years, because in the scheme of infinity that is not much. They have given up their education, they are poor, they cannot even drive a car. They do not have the prerequisites to survive in a normal world.

SPIEGEL: Scientology says the organization complies with all labor laws. Members of the Sea Org must be 16 or 18 years old and receive the required amount of schooling.

Wright: I spoke to a young man named Daniel Montalvo, who joined the Sea Org at the age of 11. One of the first things they had him do was to remove asbestos from a hotel that Scientology had bought -- without any protective equipment. Later he was a kind of page for a celebrity, a servant who stood in front of the building while the celebrity was getting auditing. I ask myself if he ever wondered why that child was not in school.

Scientology 'Gulags'

SPIEGEL: There is a place called "The Hole," whose existence Scientology denies. What is it?

Wright: Scientology has so-called rehabilitation centers. They are gulags, similar to those in communist China. The day is spent confessing sins, reading Hubbard's books and working hard. In 2003, church leader David Miscavige set up a detention center on the Sea Org base, called the "Gold Base," in Southern California. Double-wide trailers are placed there.

SPIEGEL: The people are imprisoned in trailers?

Wright: Yes, in trailers without any furniture. Ants run around everywhere, the prisoners sleep on the floor and eat slop out of buckets. They are only allowed out once a day, they are hosed down and have to go back in to practice self-criticism. They often get beaten.

SPIEGEL: Scientology denies all this, claiming the episodes of violence are just lies told by bitter apostates. Who beats them?

Wright: The people are incited to beat each other. One executive of the church had to mop the restroom floor with his tongue.

SPIEGEL: How long do people have to stay there if they have fallen out of favor with the church?

Wright: Even a president of the church, Heber Jentzsch, has been in the Hole for seven years now, although Scientology claims he just makes less public appearances. There is an episode from there, which shows much of the mentality. One evening the foremost Scientology chief David Miscavige comes to the prisoners and says: "We are now going to play musical chairs and only the last person sitting can stay. Everybody else is going to be kicked out of the Hole."

SPIEGEL: What happened?

Wright: Here were people who had been locked up for years. Miscavige offered them a ticket to freedom. And what did they do? They fought to be allowed to stay and almost beat each other to get the last chair. It is a prison of belief.

SPIEGEL: When would it become the responsibility of the government to intervene?

Wright: During my research I heard about an investigation by the FBI. The agents thought of freeing the people from the detention camp -- but the First Amendment of the Constitution allows freedom of religion. No raid took place.

SPIEGEL: In your book, you do not condemn Scientology founder L. Ron Hubbard.

Wright: He is one of the most interesting people I have ever written about, a fascinating figure, full of contradictions. He is listed in the "Guinness Book of Records" for the number of books he has published -- more than a thousand! He created a church that has endured for more than half a century. If he had only been a con man, he would eventually have taken the money and run. He spent a good deal of his life in a room with an E-meter trying to understand what was happening inside him.

SPIEGEL: Is it true that Scientology forced pregnant women at Sea Org to have abortions

Wright: Yes, if they were pregnant they either had to have an abortion or they had to leave Sea Org, although Scientology denies this. Children are not allowed there. The church wants young people who are malleable but they do not want to have to take care of them.

SPIEGEL: Perhaps because family structures are disruptive to totalitarian systems?

Wright: Right, because allegiance will be divided. Scientology asks people to get a divorce if such a threat looms.

SPIEGEL: During the 1970s, Scientology wanted to infiltrate US government agencies. Are such plans a thing of the past?

Wright: Scientologists still try to influence legislators, and they do have lawyers working on their behalf. But today, their most important lobbyists in terms of influencing legislation are the celebrities.

SPIEGEL: How are they still able to help Scientology?

Wright: The church would not exist without them. They have celebrity centers normal Scientologists can also go to, and the suggestion is that one will mix with famous actors and musicians and entertainers, and that one can become one of them. In truth they are segregated.

SPIEGEL: How close is Tom Cruise to the organization?

Wright: Former church executives told me that he is the most important Scientologist after Hubbard. Church leader David Miscavige was best man at Cruise's last two weddings.

SPIEGEL: Is there also a young generation of prominent Scientologists?

Wright: The singer Beck, Elisabeth Moss of the US series "Mad Men," Lisa Marie Presley.

SPIEGEL: Why is Scientology so popular with actors?

Wright: They drop out of school early and they try to become stars. They are young, they are not well-educated and they feel a sense of intellectual inferiority towards their peers who become engineers and doctors. Scientology fills this gap.

SPIEGEL: So they are simply searching for structure and direction?

Wright: Other than strong political views, strong religious convictions often influence daily life. Religion can be transformative in people's personalities. In the Middle East entire societies are undermined by violent belief systems. The Nobel physicist Steven Weinberg once wrote that when good people do good and evil people do evil, that is not a mystery, but when good people do evil, religion mostly plays a part.

SPIEGEL: Aside from its interest in wealthy, successful people, is the organization also interested in those at the fringe of society?

Wright: No. One has to be able to spend many hundreds of thousands of dollars for courses and books. Some spend millions of dollars. If one cannot do that, one cannot advance.

SPIEGEL: Despite all that you call Scientology a church. What makes it a church in your view?

Wright: The Internal Revenue Service. They made their decision in 1993, and that gave Scientology the legal protection that the First Amendment offers.

SPIEGEL: You write that Scientology owns a billion dollars in liquid assets.

Wright: Some people say that it is quite a lot more. The Catholic Church would be hard pressed to come up with a billion dollars in cash, Scientology has that in offshore accounts. The organization buys real estate in choice locations in the United States and Europe.

SPIEGEL: The story of how Scientology got their tax exemption is one of the most fascinating in your book.

Wright: Before he died, Hubbard decided not to pay taxes. By 1993, the church was a billion dollars in arrears. And at that time, they did not have that much money.

SPIEGEL: What did Scientology do?

Wright: Church leader David Miscavige decided to file 2,400 lawsuits against the IRS and individual agents that he had followed by private investigators. He tied up the whole IRS. Miscavige bragged that the IRS could not send their lawyers to their own convention because they were too busy with Scientology. Scientologists even infiltrated the agency, where they stole information.

SPIEGEL: How did this war end?

Wright: In 1993, Miscavige was with his lawyers in Washington. He decided to go to the IRS and to talk to them. In the end, the IRS capitulated, forgave the taxes except for $12 million and awarded the church the ability to determine for itself which portions of the organization are tax-exempt.

SPIEGEL: In Germany, anyone who wants to work for the government or state-owned enterprises in the state of Bavaria has to sign a statement that they are not a Scientologist.

Wright: Really? What threat does the organization pose to Germany?

SPIEGEL: Scientology says that they want to get into key positions in government, but reports by several state branches of the Office for the Protection of the Constitution, the domestic intelligence agency responsible for monitoring anti-democratic organizations and people, claim the organization rejects democratic legal systems.

Wright: I write about a lot of crimes and a lot of abuses inside the church, but I would not see them as anti-democratic. The threat of Scientology is personal, not societal. Scientology destroys families and individuals. But in America, the government does not intervene in such matters.

SPIEGEL: Mr. Wright, we thank you for this interview.

Interview conducted by Cordula Meyer

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