SPIEGEL ONLINE: The integration summit is being held on Thursday at Angela Merkel's Chancellery -- but the four biggest Turkish associations won't be there. What should be made of their having backed out?

Kelek: The Turkish associations don't do anything to promote integration in Germany, anyway. They're backpedaling now because they only work for what they think are the interests of their constituents -- Turks and Turkey -- instead of fighting concretely for integration in Germany. It's almost as if they're accusing Chancellor Merkel and Integration Minister Maria Böhmer of insulting Turkishness. (Editor's note: "Insulting Turkishness" is against the law in Turkey.)

Akgün: If the Turkish associations aren't there it won't change the summit, and hardly anyone will notice. The summit process is so bureaucratic and is mostly symbolic anyway. But the reasons they gave for staying home aren't acceptable -- the immigration law they're criticizing has already been decided upon by the parliament. The chancellor can't just scrap a law because of pressure from lobbyists.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: There's been a lot of debate over the building of a new mosque in Cologne recently. Ms. Kelek, you've expressed concern over the influence of Islam. Ms. Akgün, you've taken to the streets in support of the new mosque.

Akgün: I can understand that change in the neighborhood scares people. That's why you have to talk to people. But I don't see any signs of an Islamization taking place. There's been a mosque in operation there for 23 years. Now they're building a beautiful new one. What's the problem?

Kelek: We have 2,300 mosques in Germany -- enough room for 500,000 believers to pray. One-hundred more are planned. For me this development that cannot be separated from the issue of integration. Since the Muslim associations have been active -- for some 20 years -- there's been a change in Germany: The world view of Islam -- even if some see it differently and understand it to be democratic -- is closely associated with the failure of integration efforts. Mosque associations won't let women assume public roles. But exactly that would show a clear commitment to democracy.

Akgün: It's senseless to tie building a place of worship to a group's progress on integration. Otherwise you have to ask whether letting Poles build their own Catholic churches interferes with integration. Integration cannot mean that people are forced to abandon their beliefs. For me it's a sign of having arrived when people build resplendent houses of worship. It shows that Muslims in Germany are here to stay and that they want to integrate.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Ms. Kelek, what do the Muslim associations have to do to convince you a new mosque is ok?

Kelek: For 1,400 years, Islam has failed to ask critical questions or to detach itself from politics. You can't ignore the fact that Muslim men treat their wives differently when they start going to prayer services on a regular basis. Six-year-old girls are required to wear headscarves. That's the business of parents, the mosque associations say. And, Ms. Akgün, you say let's go and build another one. How is Islam supposed to be secularized if we don't demand anything of its associations? Incidentally, I find it strange to unreservedly call Islam a religion. What is religion? Something that does my soul good and guides me in a democratic society? Or is religion political, saying "serve your God or your father?"

Akgün: Ms. Kelek, you're trying to weed your garden with a flamethrower. I'm critical of certain issues and Muslim organizations, but to impose your demands for religiousness on a world religion is going too far.

Kelek: Any theologian will tell you that religion and politics are inseparable in Islam. There are plenty of examples -- just look at Pakistan.

'That Is No Model of Democracy'

SPIEGEL ONLINE: When you see a woman with a headscarf, is it simply the expression of cultural or religious identity? Or is the scarf primarily a political symbol -- one exemplifying a lack of freedom and oppression?

Akgün: Both are possible. You have to look at it case by case. I've always argued against wearing the headscarf in civil servant jobs because I believe it's important for the state to be neutral. When we can't agree on the meaning of the symbol, the headscarf needs to be kept out of the classroom. But in private the only limits are those of good taste.

Kelek: The headscarf is not a question of taste. Of course there are as many reasons to wear it as there are people. But when I look back at the last 20 years, I don't see millions of people who chose to wear the headscarf but rather an ominous politicization of Islam. I was recently in a school in the Berlin neighborhood of Schöneberg where there were lots of little girls wearing headscarves. These children will never be part of society at large, but will end up in a parallel Islamic world instead. Why are we defining these girls, at a time when those of us in Europe have learned to carry ourselves confidently in public, by their gender and not allowing them to show their hair?

Akgün: Religious maturity starts at the age of 14, and even I have said that headscarves should be banned in schools for girls under 14. But the greater the pressure we exert on people, the more we send out the signal: You are not emancipated, you are a stupid cow! -- and the more we push them into their shells. We have to create enough room for women that they can decide for themselves if they want to take off the headscarf. Putting on more pressure would just create feelings of solidarity between conservative Muslims.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: The integration summit is taking place on Thursday at the Chancellery. Representatives of the Italian and Spanish communities will be there. Why in the public debate is the focus always on the integration deficiencies of immigrants from Muslim countries? Is religion standing in the way of the successful integration of Muslims?

Kelek: Islam plays a big role! It defines the daily life of people from morning till night and the vertical division of society, between women who should stay at home and men who belong to the public sphere alone. And they are failing as fathers across the board. Neither the high numbers of young men who leave school without graduating -- 60 percent of them come from a Muslim family -- nor the Turkish boys who hang around on the streets are a coincidence. They have no fathers as role models -- because they are sitting in the mosques. And the more the fathers sit in the mosques, the more rigid they become. They obey god, come home and force others to obey them. The fathers are not friends to their sons, they don’t take care of them and they have no loving relationship with their wives. Now you might say, Ms. Akgün, that if there were no mosques, then they would be sitting in the nearest pub. But for me that is no kind of model of democracy and I think this development is dangerous. We have to insist on Muslim parents' responsibility.

Akgün: You zero in on Islam, but it's not that simple -- there is no single type of Islam. We now have a very diverse Muslim community: professors, manufacturers, technicians, opera singers, actresses, prostitutes. We have everything. Of course there are cases of oppression. But you, Ms. Kelek, are completely ignoring the social questions. I am fond of comparing Turkish youth who are looking for their salvation in Islam to the youths in Eastern Germany who get involved with the far-right. In both cases young people with no prospects are roped in by radical ideologists -- whether it be the neo-Nazis or the Islamists. That is a societal development which I take very seriously. Integration should be measured by social data such as school results, training and labor markets, income and the place where one lives. If one looks at the Italians in Germany, although they are Catholics, they would score badly. The Spanish on the other hand, who are also Catholics, would score well. So religion can't play that big a role. In the case of the Spanish, they have parenting associations, which have significantly contributed to a successful integration.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Bad school results, no prospects of gaining a qualification -- who do you blame for this situation, Ms. Kelek, the majority society or the Muslim community itself?

Kelek: Both. But I have learned unsparing self-criticism from the Germans -- it is completely different in the Muslim community.

Akgün: You are only wallowing in problems. I'm sick of hearing that imported brides are supposed to be responsible for the integration problems. Last year only 9,000 people came to Germany as spouses.

Kelek: We cannot always say that there are also positive sides. Social evils should also be called by that name. Every second Turkish mother in Germany was an imported bride, which means that she can't bring her child to school because she can't speak German. We really don't have anything to celebrate. And according to a recent opinion poll, 50 percent of all Turkish men surveyed said they want a bride from Turkey. Are the women who were brought up in Germany not good enough? I live right in the middle of the Anatolian community and I don’t know a single family that hasn’t brought a bride in from outside Germany.

Akgün: You always see the dark side, and, incidentally, I would like to have a look at the survey you mentioned. I believe I know the reality very well: I have worked for 15 years as a psychologist and family therapist in all of Cologne's underprivileged areas with high numbers of migrants.

Kelek: Precisely in Cologne. That's where all the fundamentalists are. That's where (extremist leader, self-styled Caliph of Cologne  and deported Islamist extremist Metin) Kaplan comes from.

Akgün: Please! There are 85,000 people of Turkish descent living in Cologne. Mr. Kaplan was totally uninteresting to them.

Kelek: And if I mentioned (the Cologne-based fundamentalist Muslim organization) Milli Görüs, would you also claim no one in Cologne was interested in them?

Akgün: Why haven't you pointed out that the legal situation of Turkish women who come to Germany would be improved if they were given their own residency permits? After all, you've advised the Interior Ministry.

Kelek: I didn't advise the Interior Ministry, I just wrote two books about the situation of Turkish immigrants. You're the member of parliament here, you're the Social Democrats' coordinator on Islam and immigration issues. It would be your job to solve these problems.

Akgün: And that's why I voted against the so-called new immigration law. I've made it clear that the rules on people immigrating to join a spouse already in Germany just put through by the (conservative) Christian Democrat-led Interior Ministry won't help women -- they're just discriminatory.

Kelek: They definitely help women gain their independence through better language skills. Politicians from the (left-leaning) SPD sat in the Interior Ministry for seven years as part of a coalition government with the Green Party and did nothing for Turkish women. That's their failure.

Akgün: The SPD and Green government was the first that did anything at all about the question of integration and immigration. It was the first to say that Germany is a land of immigration. We pushed through the three major laws on the issue: the immigration rights law, the new citizenship law and the anti-discrimination law.