Authors "The rift is an episode"
SPIEGEL:
Mr. Eugenides, this week you are receiving the Pulitzer Prize for a novel about sexual ambivalence and cultural metamorphosis. Are these currently hot topics?
Eugenides: I feel that it is more about timeless topics, since I resurrected Ovid and certain myths of antiquity. Perhaps I was particularly interested in the cultural changes of the seventies, the decade in which I grew up: the beginnings of feminism, glam rock - suddenly gender roles were being questioned.
SPIEGEL: And why is it that a book on these topics in particular is being awarded a prize?
Eugenides: To be honest, I'm quite surprised that a book whose first-person narrator is an hermaphrodite was honored in the year of the war against Saddam Hussein.
SPIEGEL: Can you explain why your novel is so successful in "Old Europe," even though it deals with immigrants in the United States?
Eugenides: It's difficult to say, but perhaps the Germans are particularly receptive to the theme of this book. After all, it highlights the important role of free will, instead of the very simple and scientifically incorrect idea of genetic determination. By the way, I don't understand why everyone is using Rumsfeld's reference to "Old Europe." In spite of the fact that everyone was obviously upset about it, this insult is constantly being repeated. I think that's odd. I don't think in these categories.
SPIEGEL: But isn't there also ambivalence in politics? You recently said that you defend America when you're in Germany, but that you raise German arguments against the war when you're in America.
Eugenides: I was referring to the strange but, as I believe, rather common behavioral pattern of defending one's own country or one's own family against outsiders, while at the same time being perfectly capable of criticizing things within one's own family.
SPIEGEL: Speaking of anti-Americanism, have you noticed a change in the atmosphere since you arrived in Berlin four years ago?
Eugenides: I believe that every American expects to encounter anti-American feelings when he comes to Europe. I was surprised, and a little relieved, when I noticed that the Germans were not particularly anti-American, at least not when compared to other nationalities. The Greeks can be very anti-American when it comes to politics, but they are very nice to an American as an individual. As the diplomatic rows were being played out in the UN Security Council, I noticed that some of the Germans I met felt a little more free to say things that they would not have said otherwise: Certain stereotypes were cited more frequently.
SPIEGEL: Has this changed again?
Eugenides: To me, this rift was only an episode, and now things are the way they were before. And I never found these clichés to be particularly disconcerting.
SPIEGEL: Then why did you expect so much anti-Americanism before you arrived?
Eugenides: The concept of the ugly American goes back a long time. And there is also the cliché of the American tourist who walks in, starts talking in a loud voice, and expects everyone to understand him. We know this stereotype. So when we come to Europe, we desperately try not to reinforce this stereotype.
SPIEGEL: Have you seen German peace demonstrators who claimed: "George Bush is a war criminal"?
Eugenides: Yes, I did see a poster like that recently.
SPIEGEL: How do you feel about that?
Eugenides: I thought it was a little hysterical.
SPIEGEL: Does something like that shock you?
Eugenides: I saw it yesterday, as I was riding my bicycle, and I was not shocked.
SPIEGEL: Your fellow American novelist Norman Mailer claims that America went to war because of its "national ego."
Eugenides: I believe there are many different reasons why the Bush administration engaged in this war. I don't know what Mailer means by "national ego." The argument that the Americans wanted to show that they are all-powerful is probably part of it, as are many other factors. Bush believed that he had at least ten reasons for the war. That's why he went to war. "A friend gave me this advice: Stay in Europe! It's like the McCarthy era all over again here."
SPIEGEL: The question is, where they good reasons?
Eugenides: I think that the ten reasons included some good ones and some bad ones. You can't just say that the administration decided to do it for the oil alone. As an American living in Europe, I have the feeling that only half of the truth reaches me from the other side of the Atlantic. If I could put together both halves, I would have the whole truth. It is very complex, and finding it is a difficult task.
SPIEGEL: Have you discussed these issues with other American intellectuals here in Berlin?
Eugenides: I don't have very many American friends in Berlin, but I do have many British and German friends, and I have discussed the Iraq war with them. But when I call my friends in New York, two things are obvious: Most of them have the same views as most of my friends in Europe. One of them commented yesterday on how ridiculous this attack on the French is. For example, someone accused a Democratic candidate of looking too French. That's why my friend gave me this advice: "Stay in Europe! It's like the McCarthy era all over again here." That's the kind of feedback I get from my friends in New York.
SPIEGEL: It sounds as though Americans themselves tend to be anti-American.
Eugenides: Not all of them. Sometimes I talk to people who seem to be completely oblivious to the fact that the rest of the world is so upset about the Bush administration. They react with thoughtless, patriotic, protective instincts.
SPIEGEL: You mentioned anti-French sentiment in America. Why is France more of a target than Germany?
Eugenides: If you use the word "Paris" in a book title, it's guaranteed to sell. The Americans are very drawn to French culture, and I don't believe that this ideological anti-Frenchism will last very long.
SPIEGEL: But there does seem, at the very least, to be a cultural divide between "Old Europe" and the United States.
Eugenides: I also think that's temporary. I see no fundamental reasons as to why the two cultures should begin to move apart. "We have a president who is not a real cowboy, but would like to be one."
SPIEGEL: Perhaps that has something to do with your Greek roots.
Eugenides: No, not at all. My so-called roots lie closer to the Middle East than Europe. My grandparents came from Asia Minor, and much of their culture was influenced by the Orient. If a new president were elected in the United States who was more favorably disposed to the German and French governments, the current differences would be forgotten rather quickly.
SPIEGEL: But even before the war began, there were calls for consumer boycotts against French products in the United States - even against "French's Mustard," which was incorrectly assumed to be French.
Eugenides: They went both ways. The Greeks suddenly stopped drinking Coca-Cola. I was recently in a restaurant in Prague with a Greek. He didn't drink Coca-Cola, but I ordered pork medallions with an American herb sauce. I asked for his permission to eat the American herb sauce. There are certainly those who have boycotted American products, but I don't believe there were true boycotts in America. Many of these stories came back to Europe and people believed them, such as that nonsense about "Freedom Fries." Everyone I know thought that was idiotic. So much was written about it that people believed all Americans were refusing to order "French Fries," or pommes frites. Instead, they may have pondered the damaging effects of French Dijon mustard. These kinds of things don't last.
SPIEGEL: The American Ralph Peters, an author and former officer, has said that Europe and American have ended their old marriage of convenience.
Eugenides: Such historical turning points are always exaggerated. When the Berlin Wall fell, everyone said that there would now be peace forever, and that benevolent capitalism would rule the entire world. I never believed that. But everyone had the feeling that it was a moment in which everything was about to change. Now many believe that this is a moment in which everything will change between Europe and America. I don't believe that. Mr. Peters' statements sound incredibly exaggerated, almost a provocation. Some people even feel good in such worst-case scenarios. I don't.
SPIEGEL: But there is one big contradiction. On the one hand, millions of Germans read Eugenides, Roth, Grisham and Franzen, can't wait to see "Matrix Reloaded," and listen to Hip Hop. On the other hand, they are full of resentment against the "American (non-)culture." How do you explain this?
Eugenides: I can well imagine that one can like a country's cultural products and still not agree with the politics of that country. I don't think that's a contradiction at all. I've met many Germans who have an in-depth understanding of the United States. It's funny that the American president, of all people, is trying to capitalize on the cliché of the cowboy.
SPIEGEL: What do you mean?
Eugenides: We have a president who is not a real cowboy, but would like to be one. His Texas accent becomes stronger from one week to the next. If you're an American, you know that most Americans certainly do not have an accent like Bush'. When people imitate the American accent - sometimes Europeans do that with me -, I always ask myself: What exactly are they imitating? People like to think in terms of stereotypes. After all, there are also ridiculous prejudices about Germans in the United States. But I have discovered one thing: Now, when I watch American politicians on CNN in my apartment in Berlin, it seems to me that they're all from Texas.
SPIEGEL: Did you feelings change when you experienced, in Germany, all the horrible events of September 11th and of the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq?
Eugenides: I was in New York on September 11, 2002. I had the unusual experience of living here but just happening to be there when it happened. Then I came back here and saw how it feels when you're far away from the place. That is the only difference between the European and American reactions to September 11th, at least in New York. Anyone who was there while it happened has been left with a great fear. This doesn't necessarily mean that they support Bush, but it does mean that they're extremely worried about terrorism.
SPIEGEL: And did it affect you? Do you feel afraid when you go there?
Eugenides: Of course, I'm more afraid than I was in the past. I've become more attentive in general. I once boarded an Olympic Airways flight in Greece, and the guy in front of me got on without having his passport checked. I thought: What should I do? I looked at him, and he fit exactly to the cliché of a terrorist. In fact, he looked like Mohammed Atta. He was also acting suspiciously. He was constantly looking around and seemed very tense. So I thought: What should I do? Should I report it or not? Finally, I went to a flight attendant and said: That man over there didn't have to show his passport. Of course, I noticed right away that they had detected my American accent. It was obvious to them that I was an hysterical American, and the flight attendant hated me right away. He said to me: We checked three times. It could be that they checked twice, but I knew they hadn't checked three times, because he had walked right through. In other words, the security precautions were not particularly high. After that I felt terrible and thought: Now you've reinforced that cliché of the hysterical American who sees terrorists everywhere. "I thought: Now you've reinforced that cliché of the hysterical American who sees terrorists everywhere."
SPIEGEL: Do you judge American politics differently since you've been living here?
Eugenides: I think living in Europe has changed my frame of reference. It's easier to think about the rest of the world when you're in Europe. America is almost a world of its own. In Europe, people are far more conscious of the entire world and all the different countries. The more I live here, the more I see things from a slightly European perspective, if something like that exists.
SPIEGEL: You said that the tensions between Europe and America are temporary. But doesn't America see itself in a new, stronger role since the Iraq war?
Eugenides: Most Americans are not focused on foreign policy. The economy is the most important thing to them. And the economy isn't doing well. In fact, if the economy doesn't improve soon, Bush might not even be reelected, assuming he has a strong Democratic opponent. People are losing their jobs. It's the way it is in Germany. Things are not going very well. My brother has been unemployed for a long time, and I know lots of other people who are, as well.
SPIEGEL: Do you think, after spending four years in Berlin, that there is such a thing as a "German culture?"
Eugenides: The way Germans are able to step out of their national identity and criticize it is certainly something special. One of the things I have learned here is to separate yourself from your own national identity and reflect on it. That's a big gift from my stay in Berlin. I don't know why they're able to do it - perhaps because of history, but it is a very healthy thing.
SPIEGEL: Look at it from the other side: We Germans cannot, in part because of Nazism, have an uninhibited national identity or "natural patriotism."
Eugenides: That is certainly correct, but perhaps not the only reason. Germany only became a national state in 1871, and even now, when I visit various cities, I have the feeling that they're trying to prove themselves against the capital of Berlin; it's a sort of permanent competition. In fact, the United States of America were conceived in the same way. The way in which Germany functions today is very close to what the American founding fathers envisioned.
SPIEGEL: Mr. Eugenides, we would like to thank you for speaking with us.
Translated by Chris Sultan
