SPIEGEL:

Senator Lugar, the Americans are suffering a dozen armed attacks every day in Iraq, and each attack claims the life of one US soldier on average. Given this situation, are things still progressing as planned?

Lugar: These are tragic losses. But they do not change our administration's determination to ensure that Iraq does not become an incubator for terrorism and a threat to its neighbors.

SPIEGEL: The Pentagon's Blitzkrieg against Saddam was apparently almost perfectly planned. Does this also apply to the occupation period?

Lugar: No, it was simply inadequate. If the United States enters into a situation such as that in Iraq, it must be clear that in addition to combat troops, we also need personnel that can then take over the administration and ensure that the country is governable. We were not prepared for that.

SPIEGEL: Many experts warned against the expectation that the Iraqis would celebrate the Americans as liberators. Why then was it publicly claimed that Iraq would be showered with flowers and not bullets?

Lugar: Well, the people who were hoping for dancing in the streets had to avoid making the impression that we could find ourselves in a hostile environment following our victory. I was never particularly in favor of this optimistic assumption, and for this reason I consistently questioned the planning process at the Pentagon - with modest success. It was clear to me that even those Iraqis who would have been inclined to welcome our arrival would keep a low profile at first, just to be sure that Saddam's regime had truly been eliminated.

SPIEGEL: How do you feel about the neo-conservative principle that democratic structures will automatically establish themselves as soon as the evil regime has been removed?

Lugar: It doesn't work that way. Even without the evil ones, that is, without Saddam, we must first develop democratic institutions. And that's difficult enough.

SPIEGEL: How long will the American public be willing to accept growing losses and the enormous costs of occupation, which currently come to about four billion dollars a month?

Lugar: As long as necessary. According to our opinion polls, the President still gets a lot of approval for his foreign policy. Of course, we hope that we'll be able to shift part of this burden onto Iraqi shoulders as soon as possible, but we mustn't depend on it. Our 146,000 soldiers will certainly have to spend many more months in the country.

SPIEGEL: What would have to be done to stabilize the situation in Iraq?

Lugar: Well, we've already had some success in improving our military tactics. Still, the central tasks that we have to solve are providing the people with work, commerce, a reliable supply of power and water - not just hunting down people and the losses that we suffer in doing so.

SPIEGEL: Do you support the European demand for more UN influence in Baghdad?

Lugar: You know, I'm an old internationalist. That's why I could imagine that Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder, at his upcoming meeting with President George W. Bush, will propose something like the following division of labor: We Europeans will end our involvement in the Balkans and, as NATO allies, will become engaged in Afghanistan. In that case, the Americans' job would be to do their utmost to bring order to Iraq.

SPIEGEL: How will the attack on the UN headquarters in Baghdad affect Washington's efforts to internationalize the work there?

Lugar: Some countries will certainly reconsider their willingness to support us there. This doesn't meant that we shouldn't look for UN assistance. However, I do not expect that many countries will come to our aid in Iraq.

SPIEGEL: But doesn't Washington expect Germany to become militarily active in Iraq?

Lugar: I don't feel that it's absolutely necessary. It's much more important that assistance not be provided simply to appease the US as a partner in the alliance. It must grow out of the national interests of the Germans. Our administration should resume a dialogue with our partners. And I expect the Germans to actively engage in this discussion and bring its own proposals to the table. Then bilateral relations will improve again very quickly.

SPIEGEL: But what would Washington say if Chancellor Schroeder were to propose the following: Instead of an American, install a UN representative, of Arab descent if possible, as the supreme administrator in Iraq?

Lugar: That would not be a very good idea - and probably not truly in Germany's best interest. What happens if the imams in Iraq attempt to strengthen their influence and the Kurds oppose their efforts, possibly even provoking Turkish intervention? Then we'll have another war. And who will wage this war? No one will send troops, and suddenly we'll be back were we started.

SPIEGEL: All of this could also happen under an American administration.

Lugar: It's certainly possible that the administration of US envoy Paul Bremer has its weak points. But at least he's trying to do something that a UN administrator wouldn't even dare to do. We recently appointed the first female judge. There was a storm of protest within the legal establishment, and the appointment was postponed. Of course, you could say that this just shows how stupid the Americans are. But we can only truly change things if we try something that was previously considered inconceivable.

SPIEGEL: Shouldn't the Iraqis do this themselves, perhaps prompted by the UN as a neutral body, and not at the command of occupying forces?

Lugar: Something like this can certainly be transferred to UN control and then to that of the Iraqis later on. But when I recently spoke with the democratization committee of a Baghdad neighborhood, I had two unsettling experiences. First of all, they had all appointed themselves. No one was elected by his fellow citizens. And then I met a few supporters of the old regime who openly said: the Americans will leave again and Saddam will return, and then we will be back in power. We have to be armed against something like that.

SPIEGEL: With tanks and artillery guns?

Lugar: No, we need civilian specialists who know how to get electricity, how to organize neighborhoods. That's what's lacking.

SPIEGEL: Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld and National Security Advisor Condoleezza Rice have derided peace missions on several occasions, claiming they would be a waste of US military personnel. What does that say about your outlook for success in Iraq?

Lugar: I have no intention of criticizing my fellow Americans here. However, someone will have to clean up when it's all over. Nevertheless, we will only succeed in Afghanistan and Iraq if we cooperate with others.

SPIEGEL: Following your return from Iraq, you said that the United States' involvement there would last at least five years...

Lugar: ...but hopefully not with 146,000 soldiers. I said that because I wanted to emphasize the need for our administration to present a five-year budget for our mission in Iraq. The Iraqi state currently needs about thirty billion dollars a year to cover its ongoing costs. The oil wells are expected to generate a cash flow of fourteen billion within the foreseeable future. Who will come up with the other sixteen? Who will pay for reconstruction? And what about the country's enormous mountain of debt, which is estimated at up to 200 billion dollars? We urgently need debt forgiveness by the creditor states. Do you truly believe that an independent Iraqi administration would be capable of defending itself against all these international claims? We may not be providing the ideal administration at this time, but we can certainly achieve more in this respect.

SPIEGEL: Won't a five-year allied presence simply reinforce the already widely held impression that you came to Iraq as occupiers and not as liberators?

Lugar: That's possible. But we can contribute a lot to the stability of the country in five years. Besides, think about Germany for a minute. We still maintain a presence there half a century after World War II, and yet no one sees us as occupiers.

SPIEGEL: The Americans also promised the Afghans that they wouldn't let them down once again. Nevertheless, the Taliban have been able to strike there again, and without punishment. Is Washington's war on terrorism failing?

Lugar: We will not fail. After all, it's not just our war. There is absolutely no doubt that the world has become a safer place as a result of our efforts in the Hindu Kush. The current problem is focused more on the Pakistani border region from which the Taliban are constantly penetrating into Afghanistan. Islamists who intend to overthrow President Pervez Musharraf have assumed power in that region.

SPIEGEL: In Germany, we are currently discussing whether regional reconstruction teams can improve the situation in Afghanistan. How do feel about this?

Lugar: The international peacekeepers must be active throughout the entire country. If this approach would help NATO succeed in promoting national cohesion and laying the foundation for economic development, I would very much welcome it.

SPIEGEL: Aren't the Americans, with their democratization plans, simply aiming too high? After all, the real issue at hand is nothing more than stabilizing the region.

Lugar: It would be sad if we were to limit ourselves to that. The situation was also stable under Saddam. Of course, he killed a few hundred thousand people here and there, and attacked a neighbor or two. But otherwise security certainly did prevail. We must fight for a better life for the Iraqis.

SPIEGEL: Is it still important to catch America's biggest national enemies, Osama bin Laden, Taliban chief Mullah Omar, and Saddam Hussein?